DIY adjustable rear camber arms

[16V4NRBRGR]

Originally Posted by Uk Merc Man

can someone help me.....
managed to find all the parts I need, but cant find the right size nylon bushed rod end. my alterntative is an M12 rose joint however, this is only 16mm thick....the stock bush is around 38mm - thats a lot of washers!
i look at this: M12 Male RHand Thread Rose Joint - ULTRA HIGH STRENGTH on eBay (end time 13-Jun-10 09:59:48 BST) but the spec sheet they emailed confirmed they are a little 'thin' so where it attaches to the subframe it wont be right..
suggestions?

Use conical misalignment washers like Beatbox did on his heim-jointed 5-link setup. Check out his epic build thread to see what I'm talking about. Oh, and don't buy rod ends from Ebay, since you're in the UK just go to the bookstore, get a copy of Racecar Engineering magazine, and look for suppliers of Aurora, FK, NHBB, or other high quality brands of rod ends. The all metal type need to be very good quality if you don't want them developing slop almost instantly. Slop in that kind of rod end will make clicking or clunking noises, and can become dangerous if left to get worse and worse.

[matsalleh76]

A few comments on rod ends:

--If you are going to use solid rod ends buy the BEST quality you can find.
Cheap no-name rod ends are designed to operate the manure spreader, etc. on farm tractors or the steering on riding lawn mowers: they will last a week or two on a car's suspension.
Forget eBay: not worth the risk. Aim for known US or European manufactures. The Japanese rod ends we have seen were not good but there are probably quality Japanese manufacturers.

--Quality rod ends are available with different maximum angular alignment ranges: some are limited to a max of 13deg. Extreme range rod ends will handle up to ~30deg. (Explanation:a 13deg rod end will handle a max of 13deg in each direction giving it a total mis-alignment range of 26deg; a 30 deg end will handle up to 60deg, etc.) You should determine how much range you need and ensure that the rod end can accomodate that range.

--You MUST use a conical spacer/washer on each side of the rod end. The conical spacers can be backed up by regular washers or better still a machined spacer. Regular washers positioned against the rod end will bind up the "ball", limit the mis-alignment range, and mess up the rod end itself.

--The suggestion to utilize suppliers advertised in Race Car Engineering magazine is a very good idea. They carry quality rod ends and the conical spacer/washers.

--Pegasus sells neat little neoprene protectors for rod ends. This will hold grease in and keep dirt out of the rod end.
They also sell a conical "safety" washer that is advisable to use on the Merc rear suspension outer links that are not supported on both sides by a bracket. These washers prevent the entire rod end & link slipping off the bracket stud if the ball separates/pops-out of the rod end. A large diameter "star" washer on the stud serves the same purpose on Merc factory rubber bushed links. Both the neoprene protectors and the safety washers are silly expensive but worthwhile.

Regards,
bobf

[MBRare16v]

Sick nasty info. Soon I will go to the junkyard and pull a 190 subframe out with all the links so I can do some measuring of my own. Then piece together a nice rear end for HPDE track days sans the diff. I really really need a diff but don't want to have my car not able to drive so I need to either find a good 16v diff or an alternative that's not really too much of a compromise.

[BENZEVO]

I got the front lca bushings now i just have to find my dial gauge to measure them.

[16V4NRBRGR]

I eyeballed an approximate alignment on my car today and took a rip around, the 9" arms work fine with the Mr. Roadster rod ends. I'll probably give it less negative camber by lengthening out the adjustment when I do a full alignment next week after the Nascar mayhem is all over at Infineon.

On an unrelated note, the H&R Sport Cup Kit with the 16v sway bars is pretty damn sporty on the light 8v, but the dampers could use a touch more rebound because it's a little bouncy. It may be that the weight reduction from having no AC makes the front oscillate a little faster than it would with it installed. It's good to have the 8v all tightened up with new suspension bushings, ball joints, and tie rods all around. I was really impressed at how flat it corners now. I think it still lacks refinement compared to the OEM setup on the 16v, and the open diff makes it a challenge to break rear traction without a lot of provocation. Hopefully the dampers "break in" and get a little less jittery which will make this a fine setup for the daily driver.

[Crazy Steve]

Hey, im also from the UK. So if im looking at having a bit of neg camber, 1 deg or more poss. Is it worth me getting slightly shorter arms to start off with? How much will the ends thread out for adjustment?

I have also found a few places to get hold of these parts in the UK, but want to check a few things through first.

Thanks for the write up, it sure will help a lot of people out who want to do this. :D

Steve

[16V4NRBRGR]

The 9" arms with the Mr. Roadster rod-ends are the length of the OEM camber arms screwed all the way in, so if you want more camber then possibly 8" arms or machining the 9" aluminum ones down by a half an inch or so would be the way to go. I think that with an all metal rod-end you might be able to adjust it shorter for any given length link. Half-height jam nuts can also be used to get a little bit more negative camber out of the links.

[16V4NRBRGR]

Hahaha, turns out that I didn't need the adjustable arms since I aligned the car and kept it at ~1.2 degrees negative with the arms at OEM length. Oh well it cost the same as some good OEM replacements so whatever. If I should decide to lower the rear more because the H&R cup kit slams the front but doesn't lower the rear much, I now have the adjustment to correct for it. Some solid camber control can't be a bad thing when you're leaning on the rear hard exiting corners. I took it for a really fun drive today, feels great now that the front bumpstops are cut in half. I was riding on them before, doh!

[matsalleh76]

Here are two photos of what you do not want to happen:

The rod ends appear to be low quality, were not installed with tapered misalignment washers/spacers and are pretty well mashed. They were also not been maintained --this is where those little rubber protectors come in-- and probably generate great thump & banging noises. Nasty.

Regards,
bobf

[16V4NRBRGR]

How much you wanna bet those rusted camber arms cost $300 when bought originally?

By rubber protectors, are you referring to Seals-It brand rod end boots? Those are a good idea if the rod ends are the kind without teflon liners that require grease. On a street car the boots would hold moisture inside the eye of the dry teflon style, and cause them to corrode prematurely. I just said screw all-steel rod ends, and used the bushing type because the nylon has compliance and will stay clunk free for much longer, yet is very high durometer, so would even be appropriate for a car running slicks with high suspension loads.

In reality, all steel rod ends require so much maintenance (in that they must be changed once they develop too much slop), that they're probably more of a pain than they're worth on any car that's not racing in a championship for a cash prize and contingencies.

I've decided that I'll probably use these Mr. Roadster forged steel and nylon rod ends on my 16v when I R&R the five link with the adjustable arms in the future, since they're really ideal from a cost, durability, ease and cost of maintenace, low joint deflection, zero slop, and reliability standpoint. They're offered in a couple different angles off 90 degrees, like 7 and 11 I think, so they should work for all of the links in the rear just fine.

[JamesDean]

Originally Posted by 16V4NRBRGR

2 91008001-STR 4 Bar Ends - 11 Degree Shank
$12.99 $25.98
STYLE: Str

2 91008002 Forged Steel 4-Bar End - Straight Shank/LH Thread
$14.99 $29.98

2 1750246 Jam Nut 5/8 Inch RH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

2 1750446 Jam Nut 5/8" LH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

Edit: Make sure to get 9" long links maximum, 10" is too long.
2 91034158-9 ALUMINUM TIE ROD SLEEVE, 5/8"
$7.99 $15.98
LENGTH: 9

Current Charge Summary
Sub Total: $75.90

Add another $10 or so for shipping, plus another $10 or so for the stainless steel tubing for the metric adapters, plus $2 for 12mm washers, $98 Total. Not too shabby, just saved $200.

I'll post up more when I get to installing them.

This might be a stupid question, however I'll ask it anyway.

You mention the stainless steel tubing for the metric adapter and 12mm washers...is this to replace the ones that it comes with in the event I want to use original sized bolts?

I have a set of adjustable rears on my car right now, which are rusted and the ends are shot. I was just going to order up the parts from your list and redo them. (Very good work btw) but I got stuck on that part. I think thats what you meant though.

You also mentioned, conical misalignment washers, do these washers go on the inside or the outside of the mounting points?

I'm going to be rebuilding the rear end of the 201, so I'm picking up a multilink kit for like $200 it comes with 12mm bolts for everything. I recon I might be able to use these on the new camber arms...

Sorry for the dumb questions, just trying to clear up somethings so I can put my order in.

Thanks-

-Kris

[16V4NRBRGR]

Not dumb questions at all,

It turned out that I only needed the stock sleeves for the outboard end of the camber links, I guess if yours are missing, that you could get some from an online vendor or the dealer. They're the split sleeves that are used on the thrust and camber arms to the rear hub carrier to adapt down to the smaller outboard bolts. I didn't need the stainless sleeves that I made after all. The inboard side doesn't need a sleeve at all, since the bolt is bigger.

Make sure you get the straight shank rod ends for both ends, the 11 degree thing is a weird thing with their online catalog, where you select 11 degree and then specify straight (str) for some stupid reason.

You won't have to worry about the misalignment washers, just go to the hardware store and get eight thin 7/16" inner diameter fender washers for the sides of the nylon bushings to have a nice smooth plated surface to slide on. I used some petroleum jelly on the nylon bushings in the bore that slides on the center sleeve, and on the sides against the washers, so far they work great, no squeaking or anything, and the suspension feels nice and smooth and I don't even notice they're installed.

I used the stock bolts, inboard and outboard, and kept the stock safety retaining washer on the end outside of the fender washer and rod end sandwich on the outboard end, so that the new fender washer stays nice and flat.

I hope that clears things up, it really is an easy bolt on modification. I can't wait to use this approach to replace the camber and thrust arms on my 16v using these same type of links and rod ends since they're perfect for a trackday/street car.

I need to take apart some used parts I have and get the dimensions for the front a-arm bushings, rear toe-link bushings, and the front tie-rods, so that I can work on the next round of bringing trick shit to the w201 community right out of a catalog. I think that the front a-arm and rear toe-link bushings will probably be in the Energy Suspension universal bushings, and that the front tie-rods could be replaced with the same style of threaded links with steel rod ends installed using the metric bump-steer studs available through numerous online catalogs. My goal is to install stuff that I can replace easily with short notice should I ever need to later down the road.

[JamesDean]

Originally Posted by 16V4NRBRGR

2 91008001-STR 4 Bar Ends - 11 Degree Shank
$12.99 $25.98
STYLE: Str

2 91008002 Forged Steel 4-Bar End - Straight Shank/LH Thread
$14.99 $29.98

2 1750246 Jam Nut 5/8 Inch RH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

2 1750446 Jam Nut 5/8" LH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

Edit: Make sure to get 9" long links maximum, 10" is too long.
2 91034158-9 ALUMINUM TIE ROD SLEEVE, 5/8"
$7.99 $15.98
LENGTH: 9

Current Charge Summary
Sub Total: $75.90

Add another $10 or so for shipping, plus another $10 or so for the stainless steel tubing for the metric adapters, plus $2 for 12mm washers, $98 Total. Not too shabby, just saved $200.

I'll post up more when I get to installing them.

This might be another stupid question...do I need the jam nuts if i am going to use the supplied bolts from my multi-link rebuild kit?

[16V4NRBRGR]

Yes, the jam-nuts are to lock the adjustment of the rod-ends shanks to the links.

[JamesDean]

Damnit. I should have thought of that.

I'll have to pick up some locally. I just put my order in for everything.

Oh well. I gotta pick up the washers locally too might as well be the jam nuts too.

Thanks for everything man. Good work with these camber arms.

Just bought my rear end link kit and everything. This weekend will be full of car work. My 126 300SD is getting new engine mount, shocks, cooler lines (oil+tranny)...my 201 is getting rear end stuffs.

[JamesDean]

Another question, my 190 is lowered. I was reading higher up and you said something about getting the 10" rods... I lol didnt read this and got the 9" ones. However you indicated 9" might be ok...

According to my last alignment sheet, I'm at around -.5 and -.9 degrees of camber..you think 9"ers will be ok? Or will I have to reorder some 10? Its no biggie I'm just wondering.

Thanks!

[16V4NRBRGR]

2 91008001-STR 4 Bar Ends - 11 Degree Shank
$12.99 $25.98
STYLE: Str

2 91008002 Forged Steel 4-Bar End - Straight Shank/LH Thread
$14.99 $29.98

2 1750246 Jam Nut 5/8 Inch RH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

2 1750446 Jam Nut 5/8" LH Raw
$0.99 $1.98

Edit: Make sure to get 9" long links maximum, 10" is too long.
2 91034158-9 ALUMINUM TIE ROD SLEEVE, 5/8"
$7.99 $15.98
LENGTH: 9

Current Charge Summary
Sub Total: $75.90

Add another $10 or so for shipping, plus another $10 or so for the stainless steel tubing for the metric adapters, plus $2 for 12mm washers, $98 Total. Not too shabby, just saved $200.

I'll post up more when I get to installing them.

No biggie, I asked a craigslist poster what size tires he was selling on a set of wheels today, and it was in the title.

[JamesDean]

Originally Posted by 16V4NRBRGR

No biggie, I asked a craigslist poster what size tires he was selling on a set of wheels today, and it was in the title.

LOL. I remember posting earlier and you mentioned the 9" rods. So 9" rods are good, for both lowered and stock height. Gotcha.

[JamesDean]

Where did you get your fender washers from? I went to the hardware store today they didnt have any thing 7/16 ID. They didn't even have the right side LH thread jam nut I was looking for. I was thinking about getting some 1/2" ID x 1.5" OD washers from

1/2" x 1.500" Zinc Finish Fender Washer | Fastenal

But I wasn't sure of the thickness. They have heavy duty ones there that are much thicker. I'd think the normal ones linked above would be ok, even at larger diamater.

They also have 7/16 x 2" but i thought the 2 would be too big..

https://www.fastenal.com/web/product...u=78219&ucst=t

Thoughts?

[16V4NRBRGR]

I think that they were actually 3/8" ID fender washers, but the holes are oversized so they were about 7/16". You'll want the fender washers to have good contact with the ends of the sleeves of the rod ends, and not to be much thicker than 1/16" or so. The 1/2" ID fender washers might be too thick, or have an ID that's actually closer to 5/8", it's stupid like that. The fender washers only need to be big enough to contact the sides of the bushings for a smooth surface. I think 2" will probably be fine. You have to squeeze the assembly into the subframe double shear clevises, so you don't want the washers to be too thick.

The 5/8-18 LH jamnuts are available online if you can't find them locally.

Good luck!